EPISODE TRANSCRIPT

Bryan Paul Buckley 0:02
Episode 096 of the Elite Road Warrior Podcast. Welcome to the Elite Road Warrior Podcast where we believe you can leverage the road to transform your work, health and home life while on business travel, to ultimately master the business travel life. If you’re a road warrior, and a great chance you’re on the road right now then this podcast is for you.

Bryan Paul Buckley 0:33
Welcome to the Elite Road Warrior Podcast. I’m your host, Bryan Paul Buckley, fellow road warrior, husband of one, father of five, and on a mission to help business travelers eliminate burnout, and exceed results. I’m also committed to each and every business trip to becoming and remaining an elite road warrior. And I’d love nothing more than for you to join my master evil plan in this worthwhile road trip. Back in Episode 85, we discussed an unusually dark topic, five downward spiral choices into the dark side of business travel. Due to the heaviness of this topic, I brought in a specialist to be able to kind of unpack, man some of those heavy, heavy issues that we were discussing there. So if you’ve not listened to Episode 85, I encourage you to go back to it. But this episode here is going to reference that. So let’s meet our subject matter expert.

Bryan Paul Buckley 1:25
Dr. Nick Howard is a seasoned psychologist and leadership coach. For over 15 years, Nick has helped leaders perform at higher levels while intentionally treasuring their most important relationship. Dr. Howard has traveled nationally and internationally providing training to help strengthen leaders he knows personally and professionally the joys and challenges of business travel as he flies regularly. Today, Dr. Howard will help us understand and unpack the following questions: What does freedom in isolation create in a road warrior? What is the double-edged sword of experimenting on the road? What are the long term consequences of bad road habits? How do you know when you’ve crossed the line between a habit and an addiction? What do you do when you feel guilt, shame, and hopelessness? And as always, even with a very difficult conversation here – with so much encouragement, so much more.

Bryan Paul Buckley 2:51
It’s go time. Well, I’m live right now with the doctor Nick Howard. How are you? And where are you, my friend?

Dr. Nick Howard 3:13
Bryan Buckley? The man, the myth the legend, doing well, thanks. I’m at home, looking out my office window. It’s a beautiful fall day. And unfortunately, the Gophers lost last night in overtime by a point to Maryland. So I’m grieving that loss. But I’m doing all right. I’m doing all right.

Bryan Paul Buckley 3:32
Well, hopefully, you got to fast track where that with being a psychologist. But I digress. And we’ll unpack that and a whole bunch of things there. But being a former fellow big tenor, I’m with you on there, I want to see everybody win in the big 10. But well, ironically, with this interview, you know, we have a lot of history together. For those that don’t know, you have been one of my counselors for an extended period of time, along with a dear close friend. And we’ve been able to walk that very unique line and you’ve been an unbelievable blessing in my life through and again between us girls, and all those listening at home or even on the road through a lot of these topics that we are unpacking here today. So if there’s anybody that’s an authority on this, it is you my friend, and I’m looking at sharing the law because this is coming from a previous episode of The Dark Side of business travel and downward spirals of them the dark side of business travel. So I want to make sure from that episode we are talking through what do we do with those from a psychological point of view. I also want to say one more thing. You’re a business traveler as well when you’re speaking and doing training all over the world. But you’re also still human, male, and even incredibly trained in psychology. So I just want to say that upfront for context for those who are listening, and you speak from experience professionally, but also personally.

Dr. Nick Howard 4:50
Amen. Yeah, I am human too. There’s no denying that. That is for sure. That’s for sure.

Bryan Paul Buckley 4:56
So let’s um, let’s dive right in, Nick. I mean, there’s a lot to go through here. So let’s kind of start from the freedom and isolation side of the coin. We get on the road, man, we got a lot of freedom, a lot of time that’s there. So what does maybe this freedom and isolation create in a road warrior?

Dr. Nick Howard 5:15
Yeah, it’s a good question. I know, having done training and traveled for about 14 years before COVID hit, I guess you might say that I know, there were times that if I was experiencing tension with my wife, or tension with my kids or work was really stressful, I was really excited about the freedom that I would experience on the road like I can stay up as long as I want, I don’t have to have conversations I don’t want to have, I can go out to restaurants, etc, etc.

Dr. Nick Howard 5:46
And so there’s, there’s a lot of temptation, though. And I would say, particularly, like I just mentioned, when we’re leaving home in a negative space, if we just had a fight with our spouse, or had a negative encounter with our kids, I would say a temptation becomes much more attractive at times like that. So using our freedom poorly is much more likely when we’re in a negative emotional state because we want to self soothe, or medicate or distract, right. So being really clear about where we’re at, before we go, or as we’re going, I think is really important. Because if you’re in a tough place, you want to be that much more mindful about, “How do I stay connected with friends?” “How do I be in touch with the people that will help me make good choices?” You know, so there’s, there’s excitement about going if you’re in a good place because you get to experience you know, new places go out to eat, maybe play some golf, go to a baseball park like you often do. And if you’re in a great place, then you can enjoy that in a place of security or health. But it’s, it’s especially important when you’re leaving in negative space to really be that much more mindful. Because to the extent that we’re not, we can find ourselves in places that we regret pretty quickly.

Bryan Paul Buckley 7:00
And that’s so true. And it actually leads to kind of these next couple things, or whether we’re talking about experimenting or bad habits or addictions. So let’s start with everything experimenting, Nick, what is the double-edged sword of experimenting on the road? I mean, it could be because of that escape, or it could be Hey, because of my new business, travel and have all these new found freedoms? How do we handle those experiments on the road?

Dr. Nick Howard 7:22
Yeah, so the cool thing about business travel is often you’re meeting new people. So it’s a chance to start a new and practice being maybe assertive or asking questions, or what’s my new elevator speech if you will. How do I introduce myself to people? And how do they respond and so that’s the exciting part, or playing a new golf course for that matter?

Bryan Paul Buckley 7:44
I’m seeing a reoccurring theme here.

Dr. Nick Howard 7:48
Gotta love golf. So uh, that’s the exciting part. The… the experimentation piece, though, that’s… that’s dangerous is, you know, when you’re traveling, you’re going to be in places where most people don’t know you, especially if you slip off or if you’re not traveling with other people. So you can go places that you wouldn’t go otherwise without fear of being caught or seen, what have you. And so that’s a tricky thing. Plus, if you’re meeting up with people at a sales convention, or what have you, the social pressure to drink or smoke, or go, as you mentioned in your, your episode, regarding Charles, go to a strip club. It’s like, whoa, wait, holds on a second, like this. I didn’t know my boss was gonna set this up, like, how do I navigate this? And so

Bryan Paul Buckley 8:36
Or clients, who it’s just fine to… that’s not, that’s within his morals, and all of a sudden he thinks, hey. Look at all the things I’m doing for him not considering. Maybe that’s, that’s not okay with the other person.

Dr. Nick Howard 8:50
Yeah, so it creates tensions around how do I value my clients, but also be loyal to my values? How do I do that? And am I willing to discipline a client to honor my values and the people that I care about at home? So that’s, that’s, that’s hard, I’m sure, I’m sure.

Bryan Paul Buckley 9:08
And for those of us who have that paid for, you know, whether it is a lot higher shelf than what we’re drinking at home if you know what I’m saying? Or it is to the point, well, you know, I’m with other people, I’m just going to try this, it’s okay. Or I have no bank record of this. Or you know, whatever of this, it is easier to that’s, that’s good counsel, especially depending on the emotional state back to what you’d referenced earlier, you know, being on the road, if I’m in a bad place with this, that I can intensify that or justify those behaviors. So let’s kind of lean into bad habits, Nick, when all of a sudden do these turn into habits? And what are the consequences of those? Let’s kind of unpack that a little bit.

Dr. Nick Howard 9:53
Yeah. So… so habit, by definition means something you’re doing over and over and over. This is a shout out to Stephen Covey’s Seven Habits of Highly Effective People. Right? So you might be called, he cites Aristotle we are what we repeatedly do there. And therefore excellence is not an act but a habit, we are what we repeatedly do. And I got a, I gotta indulge Kirkegaard here for a second, just because I’m a growing fan of his, but he talks about delusions, and so when we’re talking about bad habits, it means we’re typically falling for a lie of some sort. So if I believe that drinking more is actually going to bring me life, that’s actually not true, or smoking or looking at porn, like that leads to shame and regret and guilt, right? But… but Kierkegaard in a book called Works of Love, talks about how delusions actually have power. And so the more that you engage in a delusion, the more likely we are to rationalize or justify, and, and downplay the significance of the behavior. So once we have established a habit of, you know, when I drink, when I go on the road, I drink more than I do, or I’m finding myself watching porn in the hotel room, because it doesn’t come up on the bill per se, as a particular movie, right? So once that’s happening, like two or three times per se, like that habit has its hooks in you, you might say, and so, you know, granted, there are good habits, right? So you can be better at exercise on the road than you are at home. Right? It’s, it’s really about what’s in your best interest, what honors your highest values, what perhaps honors your faith commitments and the ones that are the negative ones that lead to destructive outcomes, the sooner that you can admit those, the better. Because the longer that you go without admitting them, the easier it is to go from porn to a massage to a call girl, right? All of a sudden, it’s got more and more power, like the delusion, as I’ll say, later, has you more than you have it. And so it’s just really important to try to catch them as soon as you can. Because once it starts to become repetitive, and you’re living sort of two lives, one on the road and one at home that are very different in terms of morals and values you’re… you’re in a dangerous space.

Bryan Paul Buckley 12:19
Okay, so let’s slow down because you just said something that’s very, very key. There’s, I think, I’m assuming the average business travel traveler would justify, well, I’m not that way all the time. And there’s an argument there, because that’s the deficit of integrity because now we’re two different people. But saying that I’m justifying going while I’m only that way on the road, and I’ve got it under control because it’s only on the road. I’m okay at home. And so therefore everything is okay. And you’ve been quoted as saying that you’re acting out isn’t random. So what do we say to that guy could even be me, who’s justified that I’m, you know, it’s okay, it’s road versus home, and yada, yada, yada?

Dr. Nick Howard 12:56
Yeah, there’s an author that said, Jim Blair, I think it was that said, we, as humans, we have an infinite capacity for self-deception. We have an infinite capacity for self-deception. And so like you’re pointing out in terms of integrity, you really can’t be two people because the ripple effect in your, in your life, when you’re home, will be there. And what I mean by that is, I know that when I’ve made poor choices, and I’ve not confessed to my beloved, my wife, I know that I’m more superficial and more detached. I don’t engage with the same level of depth or openness, transparency. So acting out on the road, even though it’s in a different place, you know, the hardest thing is, what happens in Vegas does come back, it might not be a venereal disease, but you’re a different person. Because I would say if you’ve made poor choices, darkness has come in, that would be a word I would use or distance. You’re more superficial. So you bring that home with you for a while. It has a half-life of some sort. Right? So I think it’s just so important to see the idea of, well, that’s just down the road. Well, that’s just a rationalization. That’s just you deceiving yourself because it does come with you. And at some level, I think we all know that you know.

Bryan Paul Buckley 14:21
And it’s a good point. I mean, you referenced Charles, which was the story of the guy that I had met, years and years and years ago, it’s made a tremendous just that story, although I’m still not in contact with him again, of the distance that he had, because of this, “second life” that he had. And to your point, you notice about coming home with your wife, because there’s a short account of that. In his case, that was business as usual, or in this case, business home life as usual. So there were so many years of decay, that he really didn’t even notice it, you know, a numbness that is there. So there may be those who are listening to this episode, Nick, who are going “well, that’s me,” which obviously there’s a lot of other issues there to unpack. So let’s go a little bit further here down, unfortunately, down this, this dark side of business travel down this downward spiral. Oftentimes, obviously, there are good habits, hopefully, the six energy habits move, fuel, rest, reform, develop, connect, then there are obviously a ton of other good habits. But then there’s obviously bad habits, even some positive things that we can turn into bad and turn and go from a progression into an actual addiction. So how do we know we may be crossed that line between that so-called habit, loose habits, stronger habits, hooks that are in you’re talking about, and a full-blown addiction?

Dr. Nick Howard 15:36
Yeah, good question. Well, the phrase that comes to mind is, something’s moved from a bad habit to addiction when it has you more than you have it. So that behavior becomes more and more compulsive to use the technical term. So it’s when you really can’t help yourself. And I was really struck as you… I was reading about Charles and that particular episode, you mentioned someone that was looking at porn in a check-in line, is that right?

Bryan Paul Buckley 16:05
That’s right. Yeah. Actually, it was at the airport kind of off to the side. And supposedly, nobody’s paying attention all that I walked behind him and, and, anyway,

Dr. Nick Howard 16:13
Yeah, so. So, I mean, this is not about judgment. This is not about trying to shame anybody. Because, as they say, in the Christian tradition, the ground is level at the foot of the cross. Like, there’s, I’ve got a lot of regrets. There’s lots of stuff I wish I hadn’t done. But the point here is, it’s like, oh, my gosh, if you find yourself doing that, at the airport, like you are addicted, like, it’s clearly in control of you. And so the thing that I think that’s important for me to share having worked with men struggling with addiction to pornography, that isn’t necessarily as much about travel. But the point I want to make is oftentimes, with porn addiction, there, there’s, there’s a way that you’re almost intoxicated by it. And so we think about if you’re smoking pot, or if you’re getting drunk, you’re gonna, you’re gonna have a hangover, you’re gonna be intoxicated, you won’t really know what you’re doing. But I’ve seen this play out over and over that if you’ve got an addiction to porn, that might be more intense on the road, you will not realize how hard it is for you to empathize or be sensitive, or you won’t see the ways you pick fights or are hypercritical. And so there’s… I think it’s important to share it to the extent that you know, a portion of your audience as men that we may not realize how much porn affects us. And that there can be like this stupid, I’ve actually had therapy sessions, where it’s sort of like if the guy had just binged the last couple days… it’s… the therapy session, while it’s helpful, in some ways, in many ways, it’s a throwaway session, because they are so lost in the illusions and darkness that they don’t even know what’s happening at some level. I mean what’s that like to hear? What are your thoughts?

Bryan Paul Buckley 18:00
Yes, I completely agree. And, sadly, I’ve had many of those conversations with people on the road, aka Charles, in this specific case, and it’s hard. You know, it’s hard to hear, because oftentimes, to your point, you’re hearing the justifications, you’re hearing the number of lies, you know, the infinite deception, if you will, and I get it, man, I’ve been down the downward spiral. So you know, I am of whom I am Chief, and I do appreciate the comment about level the cross, you know, for those of us who are persons of faith of that, and that is a question I’d like to unpack here in just a few minutes of what if you are a person who feels like you do have integrity, you do have character and faith. But before we get to that, Nick, let’s kind of move from the addictions to the moral behaviors, which I mean, ultimately could be an addiction, if you will, and you reference that whether it’s gone from porn to massages and all that, but the moral behaviors that we can sometimes justify those behaviors. What about the ramifications of those decisions and the self-justifications?

Dr. Nick Howard 18:56
Yeah, I mean, in today’s world, most of us know people that have gotten divorced and have a strained or strange relationship with their kids, or certainly, in the world of Christian Leadership, as a pastor acting out on travel, that can be devastating to a person’s career. So the greater the acting out, you know, if it’s if it’s chronic versus a one-time thing that makes a difference. The…the hard thing is, the more and I’ve witnessed this professionally, gratefully, not as much personally, but the further we go down that road like I was referencing Kirkegaard, the more that we deliberately choose at some point, you know. So, you know, when you talk about a strategy for the road, let’s say if you’re struggling with pornography, it’s like how do you… what’s your… what’s your ritual around when you go in the hotel room to make sure that you’re least likely to watch something or if it applies to drinking or what have you? The more that you kind of blow past those things and are thinking about, how do I indulge? How do I actively make this work? The relational ramifications, the vocational ramifications are gonna go up commensurately. It’s like all of a sudden, like, there was I just saw this, there was a pastor that was on an airplane, and he apparently somehow urinated on a passenger. I don’t know if you heard about that. It was like, “what?” but, so he’s arrested at the airport for public urination. And he says in the interview, I’m a pastor, this is completely not like me. And chances are, and I think this is maybe something that can be helpful, like in the case of a case like this, where you found yourself doing something that’s completely out of character. There’s a book I was talking about earlier, it’s called Unwanted by Jay Stringer. And he talks about how when we make really foolish choices, especially bad moral choices, there’s usually a complex of… he talks about, like two rivers coming together with two large rivers, like, you know, what have you in this in the states and one is current stressors. Like, if you’re under a ton of stress at work distance with your wife, you know, when your kids just acted out. Plus, if there’s unresolved family trauma, if there are things from your own backstory, that are similar, in some ways to what’s happening currently, like, when those two rivers come together, the current is the most intense, and it’s the hardest to make good choices. And so, you know, to to, if you are getting close to places like that, or if you’re finding yourself being dramatically different than you were when you started out as a road warrior, right? It’s like if you were clean, you know, you didn’t drink or smoke excessively if you didn’t look at porn, but now, you’re like, checking all those boxes. It’s like, okay, okay, stuff has gone South is going south, and it probably taps similar things from your backstory. And so the more that you ignore that, the greater the fall is gonna be, yes, the tragic reality for virtually all of us.

Bryan Paul Buckley 22:12
And I appreciate you referencing that book. And that is definitely something we’ll put in the show notes. And to go back to your story, I think somebody could very easily fixate on “Well, that pastor. Wow” and, and faith and all. But you know, it could be VP of sales, it could be CEO, it could insert whatever title that’s here. I think the more important thing is the fact they go on well, but that’s not normally like me, or unlike me, oh, man, maybe that’s our title. Or maybe that’s our self-imposed reputation, which obviously has been deconstructed for weeks, months, or years with our behaviors, which obviously, those two rivers to use your analogy, are now in full force and colliding together. But what does someone do who has made these dark side of business travel downward spiral decisions, Nick, and whether they’ve been feeling that along the way of this guilt, or the shame, or this, maybe even hopelessness, or they’re maybe feeling it now? What should they do? When should they seek professional help? How do they handle that? When they’re feeling these conflicting, maybe in a good way convicting emotions?

Dr. Nick Howard 23:15
Yeah, great question. Well, I’ve been a therapist, psychologist, what have you for 25 years and, and also have, you know, a bit of my own journey towards healing and growth, and hopefully, you know, getting closer to flourishing, the first thing that I would say to people is, the good news is that you’re not alone. You’re not alone, where you’re at. And by that, I mean, there are people that are more than happy to come alongside you, whether they’re secular psychologist or psychologist of faith, what have you. There are more and more empathy and sympathy for moral struggles, then I would say there’s ever been that’s part of what’s good about where things are in the world. As far as to shame and immediate rejection, like the scarlet letter, I don’t know what color that letter would be today, but it’s, not deep red. Like… And so there’s more openness to people hearing your story, you know, that are trained professionals, I would say than ever. And along that line, as you let’s say if you decide to interview a couple or two or three therapists, you know, part of what you want to do is start to tell your story, just kind of put a foot in the water and try to get a read or a vibe around how they respond to you. And the best ones, of course, are the ones that aren’t judging you that ask good questions. I think you know, how you engaged with Charles, that’s what a good therapist is like. And so if you can get yourself in to see a therapist, and you know, one of the good things that have come out of COVID is that telehealth is now an incredible option and so it’s reimbursed at the same level of office visits are. You don’t have to commute to see your psychologist or therapist and it’s covered by insurance. And you also in some ways, it’s interesting just to go down that road for a second having done telehealth for a while some people are more comfortable sharing with someone in front of a screen than they are actually in person. Interesting. They don’t feel as self-conscious they’ve got their own space that they’re in so they feel more comfortable. But the good news Yeah, is that there are lots of competent psychologists therapists out there that as you share with them what’s happening invited like j stringers approach which is consistent with mine, they won’t look to judge or stigmatize or be critical. Because so, so many of us when we’ve made poor choices, in some ways, we are our greatest enemy, we have condemned ourselves, we’ve turned on ourselves. And we don’t think that we should be forgiven. But that’s, that’s obviously not true. People when we soften our hearts when we’re vulnerable when we express regret or remorse, people are more than happy most often to forgive, especially someone that’s not in your system. I’m not saying that your wife is going to welcome you with open arms, right? But that’s a topic for down the road. Right? But so to seek help sooner than later, because, as I mentioned, you know, when we are falling for lies or delusions, in my experience, it’s like the grip only gets tighter. And our chances of making more foolish decisions only get greater, the longer we go without telling our stories.

Dr. Nick Howard 24:14
So do you find it because of that very reason of maybe the self-shaming, maybe there’s the assumption that I’m going to get judged, or whatever is why most people do not engage in therapy, avoid therapy, maybe even especially men?

Dr. Nick Howard 26:53
Yeah, so you know, it’s either gender is difficult for different reasons. But for men, I think especially certainly American men, you know, this whole idea of pulling yourself up by your bootstraps, you know, the rugged individualist, you don’t want to be seen as weak. And, you know, men don’t cry. Like those are… those are stereotypical cultural kind of expectations that make it a lot harder for a guy to come in and say, “Yeah, I have lost control of this, I feel helpless and powerless. And I have no clue.” And so to adopt that posture of humility and vulnerability, it’s, it’s hard for us. And yet I can say, having spent a lot of time as a client with and I continued to see my own psychologist, probably on a monthly basis to this day. And having, you know, seeing roughly 30 people a week, it’s like, I see the freedom that comes from sharing from vulnerability from confession, you might say, but there’s also I mean, I don’t want to downplay the importance of good friends, like friends that you trust that you respect. They’re also an important part, and sometimes even the first step around, how do I at least tell somebody, you know, I know when I’ve been in situations where I’ve been tempted or know I’m heading into a hot zone, you might say, let one of my buddies or more than one know, like I’m heading into a danger zone. That’s been incredibly helpful. You can’t just call your psychologist up and say, Hey, I’m at the airport, and I want to go look at porn or something like that. But you can call a friend that you’ve built a relationship with. And so the larger that you can make that circle, and if it can include a trained professional, I think that’s where you’re the best off to move towards a life that you really want.

Bryan Paul Buckley 28:50
And I’m a fan of both of the friends and also the therapy because obviously, they add different levels of value, if you will, it’s like to your point, it’s a good starting point to talk to them, or maybe a friend or it’s easier access to get a hold of them. There’s also the limitation of the lack of training of where to go on there. So I appreciate you mentioning that. One more question. Before we get to any closing thoughts you’d like to leave with us, and then obviously go to that lightning round, which I’d love to hear your answers on. But let’s just talk for a moment for those that are of faith. For those of us who call ourselves Christians who character and integrity is important, something we’ve inspired to maybe if it seems something that those who know us still think that is us. But going to the road, we’ve been danger to the hot zone, the danger zone, and we’ve made errors in the past. What do you say to that individual?

Dr. Nick Howard 29:45
Well, um, you know, one of the great things about the Christian faith, which you know, we share is the great news is that we’re permanently adopted as sons and daughters and it says in Ephesians one that we were pre-chosen again before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. And Romans 5 and Romans 8 talk about we are we are justified, which means we’re completely forgiven. And my theological slant is that means for past, present, and future sins. And so the great news about that is that our sins and shortcomings, poor choices don’t ultimately define us. They are parasites or viruses to get rid of; they don’t define us, right. And so that’s the great news along with that, you know, as a Christ-follower, there’s that longing to live a life that’s pleasing to the Lord to be virtuous to be a godly man or woman to be a mature disciple. And that’s a great aspiration to be affirmed. But also, I think the challenges then, and I think that the invitation is, as you build friendships, or as you think about your pastor, or a small group leader, or someone that might be involved in a healing ministry, in church, there are people that are a lot easier to access. If you’re in a community of faith, then you would if you aren’t a part of a body of faith, and so there’s easier access. And then the challenge is, of course, to swallow your pride and be willing to confess and be humbled. But humility leads to freedom, confession leads to life. So hopefully, we can model that. And I know in my own personal experience, and also professional experience when someone is a meaningful part of discipling relationships, their growth trajectory, their healing trajectory is at a much higher rate. Because there’s support, there’s the power, the Holy Spirit, there’s a deeper, healthier community, in my opinion, that leads to greater freedom, then if you’re just slugging it on your own, without that faith community,

Bryan Paul Buckley 31:54
Any closing thoughts or encouragement for us, Nick here?

Dr. Nick Howard 31:58
Well you know, it’s, it’s a battle for everybody. There’s, there’s no one that when they go on the road, probably doesn’t face some level of temptation. It’s just, it’s just speaks to the I would say, the darkness in the world and the culture. And you know, Bryan, I really value your writing, and I value what you are inviting people to. And so there’s always hope. And there’s always a new day. And I say, especially as you seek out help. If you seek it, you’ll find it. And so, I hope that this is ultimately an episode that brings people hope, because no matter where you are, you’re not alone, and some kind of recovery is possible. And the more that you actively pursue it, the greater the human will be, and the more likely you’ll be able to restore those relationships that are the most important to you if you’ve gotten off track.

Bryan Paul Buckley 32:53
Love it. Speaking of that, how can people find out more about you and it may be just I know, you’ve got some books that are coming out, whether it’s that whether it’s things you’ve currently written, whether it is, you know, hearing you speak, or maybe even referenced the telehealth side, where there’s an interest that’s there, especially for those of us that’s on the road, maybe that’s an important feature, or maybe it takes away “Well, I can’t meet wih a psychologist because I’m always on the road.” Well, and now you got a guy. So how can somebody interact with you, Nick?

Dr. Nick Howard 33:21
Sure. Well, the easiest way is to my website, www.Finishwellgroup.com That’s my website. I’ve got an annual blog that goes out.

Bryan Paul Buckley 33:38
So for those of us cats, it used to be a lot more often than that, and then you decided you want to be an author. So now it’s an annual blog. Nice, nicely, Nicely played there.

Dr. Nick Howard 33:46
My annual blog, and I’m just finishing up a book called The Power of With; Jesus-centered Guide to Changing Lives. And it really is about bringing greater intentionality and depth to our discipleship efforts. And I do yeah, run a therapy and coaching practice. The good news is that with the advent of telehealth, and what’s changed legislatively, and also on the insurance front is that I’m able to see people from 14 different states and build video calls, what have you, you know, through zoom and things of that nature? I am currently pretty full, but I’m hoping to hire a couple of therapists over the next couple of months. And so if I’m not available, hopefully I’ll have someone to refer to. But yeah, that’s me. I really enjoy working with men to help them as my tagline is to help them heal, grow, and flourish. And, you know, people that are willing to do the tough work and in therapy, as you might recall, it’s hard. It’s not fun. It’s not let’s go drink beers, right? So there’s suffering that it asks you to enter into, but to me, you know, in light of Scott Peck again, the road less traveled I think it’s the best road to go down because it leads to the greatest life. So those are some thoughts about me.

Bryan Paul Buckley 35:07
And I love that line because it’s most of us who are who have made, some of these bad choices are on a downward spiral. So having a road less traveled that actually leads somewhere besides down and faster, which sound appealing, even if it does require that suffering or that honesty, in a healthy context with that, so I really do appreciate that, Nick, let’s end on a light note here. So with you being a business traveler, we go through some quick questions here. This is a road warrior lightning round. Your preferred airlines?

Dr. Nick Howard 35:40
Southwest

Bryan Paul Buckley 35:41
window or aisle?

Dr. Nick Howard 35:43
Totally an aisle.

Bryan Paul Buckley 35:44
Why?

Dr. Nick Howard 35:46
Freedom man, if I have to get up and I mean, I’m 55 I have to go the bathroom like every 20 minutes, right.

Bryan Paul Buckley 35:53
Nice. Well, we’ll stop at that point there for anybody who’s 60 going, so that’s it’s my number 50? The thing you always do on a flight besides go to the bathroom apparently.

Dr. Nick Howard 36:01
Well, it would make sense that I would say bring Diet Coke right because those two are clearly related.

Bryan Paul Buckley 36:07
And I’ve witnessed that actually on a plane with you. So preferred hotel chain?

Dr. Nick Howard 36:12
Marriott, brother. Marriott.

Bryan Paul Buckley 36:14
Preferred Marriott hotel?

Dr. Nick Howard 36:18
Definitely, well, that’s a good question. I will I’m going to go with the suites. I’m gonna go with the suites.

Bryan Paul Buckley 36:25
Rental car or rideshare.

Dr. Nick Howard 36:27
Oh, certainly. rental car. Yeah, I’m kind of traditional in that regard.

Bryan Paul Buckley 36:31
Thanks. For sure. Preferred vendor with rental car.

Bryan Paul Buckley 36:33
Enterprise.

Bryan Paul Buckley 36:35
Least favorite airport?

Dr. Nick Howard 36:37
Well, I got your national and international right. So I spent time in the Philadelphia airport one time and that was brutal. That was brutal hanging out in Philly. And, but then also I lived in the UK for a year. And one time I flew back through Charles de Gaulle Airport. And that was a fiasco, it was there are all kinds of different ways to…well shouldn’t say it in a positive way. But the connection system is pretty lame, and they’ve not been decorated for about 40 years. So it feels like a time warp. Like you’re back in the 1970s.

Bryan Paul Buckley 37:11
So and you got a lot of time there because your connections are bad. So it’s the gift that keeps on giving. favorite city to frequent with travel?

Dr. Nick Howard 37:19
Yeah. So I’ve been going to Orlando to Florida for about 15 odd years, usually two or three times a year and, you know, Disney world’s down there. And it’s great in the wintertime since we’re flying from Chicago. So Orlando would be the top of the list for me.

Bryan Paul Buckley 37:35
And lastly, biggest road pet peeve.

Dr. Nick Howard 37:38
Long rental car lines, which maybe is a dig on enterprise, but I just don’t like those gratefully. I’ve got that elite status thing. So I can usually annoy people and go to the front of the other line,

Bryan Paul Buckley 37:49
You become that guy. And that’s okay. I’ve seen the smile as you’ve passed the others. Yeah. Yeah, in a humble in a humble, showboat kind of way. But anyway, I think you just lost clients, or maybe you’ve attracted to them because you’ve become a lot more human.

Dr. Nick Howard 38:05
I am human.

Bryan Paul Buckley 38:11
Well, Nick, I just want to thank you for this journey. First and foremost, personally with me, we’ve worked through many of these things. These are just not words that are just kind of thrown out there. you’ve walked this journey with me, and I hope those that listen to this have found? Well, I in a way I kind of made you feel a little bit of conviction in a good way that that downward spiral changes, and you go from the downward spiral to that road less traveled, being willing to make some changes, to maybe get that integrity back or that character or who you want and long to be with there. So thank you for investing into roadwarrior nation and being encouragement to us.

Dr. Nick Howard 38:47
You’re welcome, Bryan, my pleasure. Keep up the good work, my friend.

Bryan Paul Buckley 38:54
If you have kids, you know they absolutely love mail, especially if it’s from you. Now with my kids, the cards they enjoy the most were the ones that were designed for kids. And I found that when I took just a minute or two and wrote meaningful words breathing encouragement and truth into the life of my children, they made a huge difference. And as a result, Elite roadwarrior group created a Connect cards product line to help you invest into the lives of those you love that co each card was made by a kid for a kid and connect is at the heart of elite Road Warrior and is energy habit number six. The cool part is the purchase of this card directly supports warrior wagons, a nonprofit organization, who delivers warrior wagons filled with essentials to brave children, their families battling all forms of pediatric cancer and there are five Connect card choices. Thinking of you, miss you, proud of you. Love you and grateful for you. Go to eliteroadwarrior.com/store today to pick up your very own cards.

Bryan Paul Buckley 40:12
I’d like to thank Dr. Nick Howard. Well for handling this difficult subject of the dark side of travel with encouragements in challenges and insights for us to become elite road warriors in the areas that matter most within our integrity, and our character.

Bryan Paul Buckley 40:33
You can find the transcript and everything referenced in this episode in the show notes at eliteroadwarrior.com/096. Along with free resources for both the business traveler and leaders of business travelers, I’d love to hear from you so you can connect with me on my primary social media sources, LinkedIn at Bryan Paul Buckley, the LinkedIn Elite Road Warrior page, and on Instagram at elite road warrior so wherever you are on the road, do something anything just not nothing to master the business travel life. Leverage the insight from Dr. Nick Howard, to help you become and remain an elite redware today to eliminate burnout, exceed results and maintain your character. You got this.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

Transcription

Bryan Paul Buckley 0:01
Episode 94 of the elite Road Warrior podcast. Welcome to the elite Road Warrior podcast where we believe you can leverage the road to transform your work, health and home life while on business travel, to ultimately master the business travel life. If you’re a road warrior, and a great chance you’re on the road right now then this podcast is for you.

Bryan Paul Buckley 0:33
Welcome to the elite Road Warrior podcast. I’m your host, Brian Paul Buckley, fellow road warrior, a husband of one, father of five, yeah, five, and on a mission to help business travelers eliminate burnout and exceed results. I’m also committed to each and every business trip to becoming and remaining an elite road warrior. I’d love nothing more than for you to join my master evil plan. And this worthwhile road trip.

Bryan Paul Buckley 0:58
A while back, I met our guest, David, I reached out to him had a lot of questions for him dealing with culture. And we just clicked I mean, we clicked in every aspect of life being a road. We’re a large family, from our faith to the size of the family to the exact number of kids we’ve got. Come on now. Also to the way we run business and values. I just knew this guy’s got to be on this podcast episode. What a unique gift he’s going to be for you today. So I want you to meet David McGLennan. David is a business growth guide, who helps leaders learn to play the infinite game of business. He shows those leaders how to integrate their desire for high performance, achievement and growth, while focusing on the things they value most. As an entrepreneur and family business owner for most of his life he’s made the mistakes and yet loves getting out of his comfort zone to learn and grow. He’s coached and trained leaders around the world as far north as the Arctic Circle, and to share the stage with john C. Maxwell while training leaders in Paraguay, South America. He’s been married for 31 years and the father of five children, mad kudos, man, living in the Pittsburgh region. David is recovering triathlete and lives an active and healthy lifestyle. In a moment, I’ll be asking him the following questions. What was life like in those early days for your wife? When you traveled and left your starting five back home? What were the rituals you had while you traveled heavily for a long period of time? How did you train for a half Ironman distance triathlon while on the road? And what would you say to the business travel leader to help their road warriors gain consistent results on the road? And there’s always so much more.

Bryan Paul Buckley 3:01
it’s go time.

Bryan Paul Buckley 3:15
Well, I am live with Dave McGlennan How are you? And where are you my friend?

David McGlennen 3:19
Haha. I am awesome. I am in the Pittsburgh region. So excited to be with you here today.

Bryan Paul Buckley 3:27
Well, I appreciate that. And I got a piece of sports trivia. Okay with Pittsburgh. Okay, if people are in sports, they may learn or may not know. Okay, it’s the one what is the one city with at least three pro teams. So it’s got to be either basketball, baseball, hockey, football, one of the three of the four. Then all three teams share the exact same team colors. It’s the Pittsburgh it’s Pittsburgh. It’s Pittsburgh. Steelers. penguins. Pirates, pirates. Yeah, very rare. But it’s a cool cool thing. It could be iI’m a sports guy as well. Yeah, there’s this piece of trivia but Brooklyn out there right to get this whole thing started.

David McGlennen 4:07
It might win something someday, you know exactly.

Bryan Paul Buckley 4:09
You know, maybe it’s one of those trivia things where someone’s gonna go I remember that day. McGlennan guy, Pittsburgh, and even though it’s the one city with three major sports you have that same sports guy. Anyway, we digress from the start here. So we also have something very unique in common David we noticed this right away we both have our own starting five lineup right basketball with five kids.

David McGlennen 4:30
Absolutely, man. Yeah, it’s amazing. I it’s it’s it’s hard to meet some people you know that have the I have that same five kids starting lineup for sure. True.

Bryan Paul Buckley 4:40
Now, how old are your kids now?

David McGlennen 4:42
Yeah, so my oldest is 28. I just married her off a little over a week ago. Are you sure right? Yeah, right. I said Good luck, buddy. Because you know what? The oldest, so yeah, so she’s 28. My next in line is 26 And then I’ve got a 24 year old, a 22 year old and a 19 year old, we had the two year thing going. And then the last last two, we spaced that out a little bit. But they’re all amazing kids as I know you, each one of them are so unique, and it’s really kind of cool to be able to see each one of their unique personalities

Bryan Paul Buckley 5:18
coming from the same DNA.

David McGlennen 5:20
Yes, right. It’s just It’s amazing.

Bryan Paul Buckley 5:22
It truly is like, How in the world did you enter into this family? But then you see like that crazy ugly, like, that’s your mother? I completely get right there where that came from? Oh

David McGlennen 5:34
Well, the hard part is when I see myself in them that I’m like, oh, Lord, have mercy.

Bryan Paul Buckley 5:40
In the words of my four year old my youngest that that no good. No, right. Right. My wife’s very, very clear to make sure that yeah, that’s that’s the Buckley side coming out right there since great anyway. Well, David, speaking of five kids, what was life like in the early days for your wife, when you were a business traveler and watch your starting five? home with that other coach, right?

David McGlennen 6:03
Let’s just say I married a saint because, you know, life was crazy. You can I mean, you know, it’s it’s, it’s it’s crazy when I’m there and so when I’m not there, she’s short handed. And you know, it’s always it’s funny, too, because she will always tell the story that whenever I was out of town, something would go wrong. There was the the refrigerator broke, there’s a gas leak, and we have to go out to the hotel and spend the night at a hotel. You know, that kind of crazy stuff. And it never happened when I was around. It always happened when I was on the road.

Bryan Paul Buckley 6:42
You know why? Because that guy Murphy shows up in your place.

David McGlennen 6:48
Oh, I know, I know, I hated calling home. Because it’s like, oh, how are you doing? And I can always tell, you know, always tell, well, we’ve had a little challenge. And, you know, it’s either, you know, something broke down. Somebody needed stitches it you know, with, I have three boys, two girls. And so one of the boys was always, you know, having to get stitches at some point. So, so it was, it was crazy. It really was, but yeah, she put up with me.

Bryan Paul Buckley 7:21
How long did it take for you to truly appreciate? I mean, obviously, you knew it. But like, how long did it take you to truly appreciate what what you were putting her through? In a way? Yeah. And we visit droughts. We know what that means.

David McGlennen 7:32
Yeah, and I think that it honestly, I think it took a little while I don’t know that I can, like put a timeframe on it. But it took me a little while because I was so focused, being on the road. And and, you know, being in hotel rooms and, and, you know, meeting with clients and things like that, that I don’t know that I really, like, absorbed it until I came home. And I think it took me maybe a couple of years even just to really understand like, what what she went through. And I guess actually, as I’m thinking about it, here’s here’s when it kind of really hit me. She went away for a retreat one time. And I was home with the kids. And and so that really is when it like hit me like, I really don’t want these kids. Right. Yeah. How does she How does she do it? She’s making she’s making meals. She’s making sure nobody dies? You know, all of that laundry and all of that kind of stuff and so forth.

Bryan Paul Buckley 8:29
Sports practices, everything. Yes.

David McGlennen 8:31
Yeah. And so it was really I think it was really that moment that it, it hit me like holy cow. She’s really, you know, she’s awesome.

Bryan Paul Buckley 8:40
And, and I think everyone who’s listening, David can even if we only have, you know, one kid, which obviously not the case in our situation, but you take that call, and of course it’s on a night when things are going great. You know, we got a great dinner planned or we’re going to some event. And that’s when you get you know that call

David McGlennen 8:58
Right? Right?

Bryan Paul Buckley 8:59
It’s hard because you want to be empathetic, but you are completely powerless. Right? And it’s hard to to brush that off when you’ve got to do your deal. Yep. And do road life.

David McGlennen 9:09
Yes, exactly. Exactly. Yeah. And you know, the thing is to it. It… having having that call is you know, you never it’s a little distracting sometimes, but you know, you got to do it. I mean, you just got it. Anytime my wife called me when I was on the road I always picked up I don’t care if I’m in a deal. I don’t care if I’m in the middle of a presentation. pick up. Yeah, absolutely. That’s one thing that that was one rule that I always had. Like, why for home calls I pick up.

Bryan Paul Buckley 9:41
That’s a great tip. That’s a great tip. And because your home life, David, I mean, one thing that I’ve always appreciated about you and getting to know you especially it’s just your strong rituals. Yeah. So what are the rituals that you had while you traveled heavily? And obviously, whether it was you know, one on the list of five kids or wherever it was with their At least your road life.

David McGlennen 10:01
Yeah,

Bryan Paul Buckley 10:02
what are those rituals? What did they look like. Unpack

David McGlennen 10:04
So the thing I think about when I think about rituals, when I, when I was on the road, is really the one main ritual is just working out, I would always work out and it varied on when I did it, when I’m home when I was home, I usually worked out like mid afternoon so that I could, you know, kind of have a little bit of a refresh or revive. But a lot of times it was at the end of a day. And and sometimes it was at the beginning of the day, I didn’t really like working out at the beginning of the day. But, um, I, you know, I worked out all the time on the road, because that was just part of, honestly, it’s part of who I am. And I was, you know, doing some crazy stuff with, you know, doing triathlons and things like that as I was, as I was traveling. And of course, you know, when you’re traveling, you know, and you’re trying to train for a triathlon, you usually don’t have a great pool, and you don’t have a bike. So really, the only thing that I did was run so I got a lot of running in. But but that’s one one ritual that I can I can talk about for sure. And, you know, then I think another ritual that I always think of too is when I was getting on an airplane, I’d get on the airplane, first thing I do is I pull out my my noise canceling headset, because when I got on the airplane, it was like, Okay, this is my downtime. And this is really, I just wanted to kind of like zone out a little bit. And so that was kind of like putting myself in my own space. I’m one of those guys that I I talk to people all day long. And so when I get on the airplane, I don’t want to talk to anybody else.

Bryan Paul Buckley 11:42
That is the international Do Not Disturb signal, exactly is the is the quintessential headphones. Exactly. Let’s unpack that a little bit, too. Obviously, it’s your own time, and you’ve been serving, giving to other people. So when you put those headphones on, it’s kind of like that go time. It’s my time. What did you do? like well, how did you for a ritual of being on a plane? How did you did you work? Did you read that? You do other things and mixture? What did that look like?

David McGlennen 12:06
Yeah, yeah, I did… it’s typically three things. So I listened to some music and and usually the music was you know, we were waiting for the the boarding process and and then you know taxiing out. And occasionally on the taxi, I would take a little nap. But usually once I got up in the air, I was awake. But then I’d listen to podcasts. And then I would also read so so those are kind of my two go to, I always had a book with me. And I always had usually like nuts with me so that I could I could eat like just like raw almonds as well I kind of my go to, so that if I missed a meal if I if I was in between flights and I I couldn’t, you know, couldn’t go eat, that I’d have something that would you know, be healthy. That’s the other thing too. I know is so hard on the road is to eat well. But I avoided you know, going to the Burger Kings and go into I you know tried to really focus in on like the, you know, subways and I love sushi. So any any place I could find sushi i was i was on it. And but but yeah, those are the kind of the things though that once I got on the on the plane, I’d put music on. A lot of times I’d listened to a podcast and in 95% of the time, I’d be reading the book too.

Bryan Paul Buckley 13:25
And that’s good to know. Because the reality is we all have rituals, it’s just a matter of whether A) we recognize them, right? Or B) if they’re serving us well.

David McGlennen 13:35
Yeah, that’s exactly right. Yeah. And sometimes you have to change those up too. You have to be able to look at it and ask yourself, Is this really serving me? And you know, a lot there were some times when I would just I would just sleep because I knew that I needed sleep. So that’s that’s important.

Bryan Paul Buckley 13:52
So for somebody listening to this and going, Yeah, I’m that guy who’s probably doesn’t have the best road rituals. Any suggestions for them?

David McGlennen 14:02
Yeah, so two things. Well, let me say three things if you can just work on your sleep, and you know, getting to sleep at a reasonable hour. I know it’s so tempting to be able to sit in a hotel room and answer emails and trust me I did that too. But but but making sure that you’re getting adequate sleep, working on your, your eating habits and recognizing where you where a better choice is. And, and then third, doing some kind of a workout getting some exercise because I know I know, that I’ve seen you know colleagues who they’re on the road and they’re eating, you know, bad times of the day, not so great food, and it really shows up in their health. And I think that that’s… those are probably the three things that I would recommend. Start with one don’t don’t try all three at the same time. But you know if it’s just like getting some exercise, go get on it. Most hotels have treadmills, go get on a treadmill, just walk or get outside and just walk around the hotel. Even if you’re not in a familiar area, it’s you know, it’s something that you can do.

Bryan Paul Buckley 15:11
And I love the suggestions because they are actually the three physical energy habits. Yeah, move, fuel, and rest. Love it. And to your point, it affects everything else. I mean, absolutely. I could have all the time though. I will argue to the death when when someone goes, Well, no ties more important energy. I said, Okay. How about if you have all the time in the world and you’re exhausted how much you get done, right? If you have a short amount of time, and you’ve got a large burst of energy, and you’re focused, how much can you get done, especially on the road, and to your point of immediately going to the email, which is the gift that keeps on giving? And it’s the well that never ends? Right?

David McGlennen 15:43
Right? Absolutely.

Bryan Paul Buckley 15:45
And so, as a result of that, if we can take care of ourselves, it’s going to make a tremendous difference on the road, especially with our rituals. So I want to go back to something you mentioned. Okay. training for a triathalon.

David McGlennen 15:57
Yeah.

Bryan Paul Buckley 15:59
On the road! It’s not like okay, well, okay. Well, I decided to, to run from Pittsburgh to Philly, instead of drive or fly. So I mean, I know you kind of rushed it, although it sounds like you’re gonna get it gonna get the laps in, you needed to Hilton Garden and pool. So, like, when you’re in the training phases, like, here’s the date, October, whatever, you’re going for the, you know, for the training of that, and you’ve got your training time? What is your on the road training look like? And then obviously, how did you offset off road?

David McGlennen 16:28
Yeah, so. So when I was on the road, I would, I would always run, I had my shoes with me that was required, I had, you know, shoes and running running gear. And, and I also would do some strength training as well, because one of the things that that you know helped me is to be able to, to, to strength train my arms, my shoulders, so that when I did get in the water, I wasn’t like totally starting from from scratch. So that helped an awful lot.

Bryan Paul Buckley 16:59
So that’s a really good tip. Because what it is, is thinking about, okay, well, you know, well, if I can’t, you know, if I can’t do a certain thing, then what’s the point? As opposed to saying what’s secondary, that could at least make that better? So when I do get in the pool or whatever, I’ve got some strength. I don’t want to I didn’t want to bypass that. That’s a really good point.

David McGlennen 17:19
Well, it is. And the other thing too, that I would do if if I if I normally when I went to a hotel, they would have some kind of workout equipment. And in general it would have weights but if I knew that they didn’t, if it was a place that I’ve been to before I would bring the the bands, you know, I had bands, so I could put them over a door, you know, and just do some strength training, do some simulated pull ups. Yeah, exactly anything to keep my shoulders going, keep my lats and that kind of helped keep me you know, strength strengthen. And so, but the biking was the part that suffered, you know, mostly. And the last one that I did, I was training. I mean, I was traveling quite a bit. So my my time’s suffered. But at the end of the day, the last one that I did, I didn’t really care about my times, I really just wanted to complete it. It was one of those things that I had been doing them for a long enough period of time that I didn’t care about the time, it was really about the people I was with and who I was doing it with. So that really didn’t matter. Yeah,

Bryan Paul Buckley 18:21
well, and I did learn that it’s really tough to pack a pelleton. It is yes, in a carry on. It is with that and if there is like, you know, let’s say in a courtyard Marriott, and there happens to be the bike that’s there. I’m not sure if you’ve seen this guy, David. He’s always no matter where I go to. He’s always on there. And he is on his phone. Yeah. And he’s managing actually to go backwards. He’s going so slow. he’s going Yeah that slow. And I’m like, dude, dude. Really? Yeah. He got to be a guy come on, man. Don’t be that guy to do that. So your point even there, it’s not like you’re gonna log log enough miles there to make it matter on there. But you’re getting you’re running. Yeah, but I mean, it speaks to just the the ability that you can still pull that off. Yeah, you can still pull off a triathalon when you’re on the road, when most people say I don’t have time to go for a walk Yeah. And here you are training for a triathlon. What do you say to that?

David McGlennen 19:13
Yeah, I say that it’s really something you said earlier. And it’s really all in your rituals. And it’s, it’s in your rituals and your your discipline. And it’s, it’s, I say, it’s like, What do you want? I mean, do you want to? what’s the end result? Think about, you know, what, begin with the end in mind. If I want a triathlon or if I want a 10 K or 5K or whatever, um, start, start with something and begin just creating that ritual. And honestly, you have to, you have to think about it like, Who am I? Am I am I a person who takes care of my body? Am I a person who takes care of myself, for my family, for my kids, whatever. But it’s, it’s all about the rituals, man. And I gotta tell you, I mean, there are a lot of days when I mean, I didn’t want to go out and I didn’t want to run because I was tired. And I have to finally, yeah, exactly. But I did it. I did it anyway, because I already paid my registration fee, and I wasn’t gonna, you know, just not show up. And so I get a charitable donation. Exactly. Yeah, exactly. So it’s really all about the rituals.

Bryan Paul Buckley 19:18
And I love what you said to have, like, what am I going to get out of this? Or who am I going to become? So if you just think about, okay, if I’m going to decide, I’m going to go for a walk for just 20 minutes, let’s use the example you gave David, whether it’s in the treadmill in the fitness center, or just walking around the complex, I mean, a lot of times, you’re in a hotel, hotel complex, and there’s two or three other hotels or whatever. And you get a chance to walk around woods or walk around business park or whatever. And I love the idea of going okay, if my goal is for 20 minutes, what do I want the end of that?

Bryan Paul Buckley 20:47
Now, obviously, it’s probably not going to be while and hopefully I’m not dripping sweat, right? Because I’m that out of shape. If anything, I’m going to work through a problem, or I’m going to listen to a podcast, yours or mine? Yep. Maybe it’s going to be I just need to clear my head. Exactly. Yeah. And sometimes I don’t even know where like, I got to make a tough call. And I’m gonna use this 30 minutes here to walk just to get my head into the right spot, to be able to make that tough call or to go into this meeting or to prepare to speak that evening. If I’ve got a plan for. I absolutely love that. Talk just for another minute. Because I think this is really good about who I want to become or who do I not want to become with my rituals, and how are they interrelated?

David McGlennen 21:27
Yeah, so one of the things that I so my dad and I were close, we were business partners for almost 20 years. And one of the things I knew is I did not want to become him in this aspect of physical fitness, because he was not physical fit. He, he actually passed away at the age of 65 of a heart attack, massive heart attack, his idea of exercise was walking from the golf cart to his ball back to the golf cart again. And, and I knew I didn’t want to be that because he was overweight, he was out of shape. And he really couldn’t play with his grandkids. And so I decided, and I didn’t really decide this till I was about 32 years old. But I decided that I didn’t want to be that. And so I wanted to be someone who really took my physical fitness seriously. And I mean, you know, and it really took discipline. And I will also tell you, it took accountability because I had an accountability partner, or actually a workout partner. And he also happened to be a cop. So you know, I wasn’t going to mess around. Because he’d come after me. But, but yeah, it’s it’s, you have to think about it at the identity level, like Who am I, I am a traveler, but I’m also a fit traveler, I loved seeing the guys who like, you know, you can tell when they’re walking down the aisle of the of the plane, you go, Okay, he’s a runner. She’s a runner, you know, and and you just knew that they were disciplined with that. And so it’s really a mindset of understanding, look, I’m going to be fit. And I’m a person who is fit or becoming fit. And I’m also a traveler, I’m also a road warrior.

Bryan Paul Buckley 23:05
I love it. And hence elite road warrior when you think about it. Anybody who’s elite in whatever they do, whether it is an elite athlete, whether they are an elite performing musician, whatever their habits and to use your to your word, their rituals, you know, don’t look like the next guy, and nor do they care that nobody else knows and nobody else is checking in. Or even if they do, it’s the one person in your example, that does care. But they’re going to do it because they want to become a leader and that is their aspiration. I love it. Exactly part of your business. So right now, David is helping companies to develop their values. Yeah. Why would that be important, let’s say to a team of business travelers, whether you’re talking to an actual business traveler, or whether let’s say you’re talking to the leader of business travelers?

David McGlennen 23:49
Yeah, yeah, I think it’s so important, because one of the things I talk, I do a lot of work within culture and culture. And a lot of times, companies will set their values and they will come up with this list of values. And I like to take it to another level. So coming up with values is great. Values are like nouns, though. They’re, they’re, they’re notions that, you know, “respect, integrity”. If, you know, let’s say, you know, “respect” If I grew up in, you know, Japan, my idea of respect is different than if you grew up in the Bronx. And so there’s two different ideas there. So I like to say, taking taking values and creating what I call fundamentals or taking them to behaviors, how do we live those values out? So for any leader who is you know, has a sales force or a traveling force, that, you know, this is super important because you got to come up with the behaviors, like, you know, get clear on expectations. That’s that’s a behavior that one of my clients puts in place. In and getting clear on expectations is, what do we expect? Do we expect our road warriors to to be emailing at 11 o’clock at night? Or do we actually say no, don’t push send on that on that email after nine o’clock at night, whatever those expectations are, get clear on those expectations, that’s a behavior, I can see it, I can coach it, I can teach it, I can give feedback on it. And so I think it’s super important to be able to take your values and really create behaviors from them. And when you do that, then you’re going to set up the parameters for your team, and you’re going to help them to be elite, you can, if you get clear on expectations and say, hey, look, we expect you to take care of yourself, that’s an expectation. And when you do that, they’re the people will live to that. And and, and if you’re talking about it, talking about rituals, part of my practice, then is not just defining those those behaviors, but actually creating rituals around them, so that you can actually see them and you can live them out. And you can ask what’s been getting in the way it’s coaching. And so I really feel like for any, you know, any company that has travelers, it’s super important to be able to create this aspect, even if it’s just your division, even if it’s a if it’s so I’ve worked with a division of a fortune 200 company that had 15,000 employees, but this one division had like, like 200, I think, and so we worked on just their behaviors, their their fundamentals, and so that that’s what I see is super important is because then you can you can help your your travelers to know, how do we behave? How do we behave on the road?

Bryan Paul Buckley 26:53
So let’s zoom out. And that was really zoom in with what you just said, The zooming out is we can have these nebulous values, which sound great. But the end of the day, they’re just nouns to use your example of that. Yeah, so we’re needing to take those values and make them into tangible behaviors that we can track and we could coach, but within those behaviors in order for them to happen on a consistent basis, we need to create rituals, yeah, that are going to work our way to establish that behavior, which allows us to accomplish that set value. Is that correct?

David McGlennen 27:21
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, absolutely.

Bryan Paul Buckley 27:23
So let’s just talk to the chairs for a minute. And generalization. And for a company who has business travelers, people on the road, you alluded to two of them a little bit one is a little bit of emailing with work. So let’s get a few more examples. If somebody is listening to this, and they are a leader of business travelers, or they’re on a team, they’re like, I aspire to be that guy, or I want to find a company who’s going to be that’s going to be my boss is somebody who’s going to allow me to get to that level to do that. So can we just kind of talk through some of the ones that you’re using on a consistent basis with your own clientele, some that could get really specific and fits to somebody who’s listening to this as a business person.

David McGlennen 28:02
Yeah, one that comes to my mind is look ahead and anticipate. I know that it was it’s a it’s a behavior that for me, when I was on the road a lot, I had to look ahead, I had to anticipate, and I know that, you know, elite road warriors are really good at doing this. Because let’s say you have a weather situation, and you know, you’re going to miss your flight. So looking ahead, and anticipating and saying, Okay, look, I know that the weather is going to be bad in Philly. So I need to reroute. So look ahead and anticipate is just one way for it to be able to, to create a vast array of behavior from a value. And so the other thing too, that I would another one that comes to my mind is assume positive intent. So, so many times I at least I’ve seen anyway, companies who, when their when their people are out on the road, they perhaps like assume that they’re, you know, doing stuff that they maybe they shouldn’t be doing? Well, let’s let’s come from a different perspective, let’s assume positive intent. So just because you you know, you see an expense item that you know, maybe doesn’t… you’re questioning or whatever, let’s assume positive intent, that’s a that’s another behavior that would actually help us to be able to make sure that we’re living out our values and and and, you know, that may not be the right one for everybody, but it kind of just came to my mind.

Bryan Paul Buckley 29:30
But it’s a strong example because you think about it. I mean, just think about how many road warriors just and of themselves are kind of the you know, the negative Norman, you know, it’s automatically they go dark all I expected this to happen. And then all of a sudden, within seconds, David, we’ve got five of those people around us who are just all enjoying that morsel of negativity, you know, um, but also to assume that your best your boss has your best intentions or that there’s a positive. I really like that because that could come in a number of different ways. Yeah. Absolutely love that. It also can mean that for me with, okay, well, if a client is late, or is making a change or something like that, what could the good be found in that just assuming the positive? And just because it’s bad right now doesn’t mean it’s going to get worse. It doesn’t mean it’s going to stay bad. Right.

David McGlennen 30:15
Right. Absolutely

Bryan Paul Buckley 30:16
It could turnaround. So I think that’s a really strong, absolutely. Anyone else? Any other any other ones that come?

David McGlennen 30:20
Yeah, you know, I think one that I love, especially for road warriors is practice the human touch, you know, the people that we encounter on the road, the person behind the desk, at the, at the hotel, the person behind the desk, you know, at a at the airport, practicing the human touch with their hands, they could be having a bad day, too, you know, and we never really know how people you know, what’s going on in people’s lives. And so I think just practicing that humaneness to be able to understand that look, they might have a lot of a lot more things going on, than meets the eye, and just a little smile and, and being kind to people, I found that, you know, my dad taught me You can attract more flies with with honey than you can with vinegar. And I gotta tell you, more times than not, I’ve gotten an upgrade, just by being nice to the person behind the desk, and, you know, upgrade to a nice room just by being kind. And I think that we forget that sometimes we’re all in our own little world. And, you know, we’re hustling.

Bryan Paul Buckley 31:27
They serve me. When I’m on the road it’s about me.

David McGlennen 31:29
Exactly. Yeah. So I mean, that’s another one. I think that’s that would be super important.

Bryan Paul Buckley 31:36
Because you think about it. If you’re at the flight attendant, and, or the you know, right there at the desk, and something’s gone wrong. You already know they’ve spoken to 40 to that other guy. Yeah. And where did that go? Right. And I’m on my desk, and the same thing is going son, you never get anywhere by yelling at somebody who can help you.

David McGlennen 31:57
Exactly. Yeah

Bryan Paul Buckley 31:58
They have the ability of making things worse. You think they’re bad now son,I

David McGlennen 32:02
It could be a whole lot worse. Exactly.

Bryan Paul Buckley 32:04
But what if you went the other direction on their worst case scenario is it doesn’t get worse, right best case scenario to your point, there’s an upgrade this there, or even maybe just made their day. Right and I know. Sometimes it’s so difficult, but even just to pause, that just jumping right in, it’s just how are you? Exactly? How’s this going? Man, that last guy was rude. I don’t know how you handled that. You kept yourself together. Man, that was that was pretty impressive. Once you know that, I saw that. And that was pretty, pretty awesome. You’re… that is so true. That human touch, especially on the road, especially when more than one’s always given on there. Any other examples? Maybe on the productivity results side of things?

David McGlennen 32:43
Yeah, I’m trying to think, you know, probably, I mean, one is, I think, probably is find a way, you know, it’s, it’s, it’s really about taking and owning personal responsibility and taking, you know, just finding that way being being persistent. There’s so many applications, I can think of just just being able to find a way but but you know, just taking responsibility for making things happen. I think it could apply to to road warriors as well.

Bryan Paul Buckley 33:15
Perfect. I love it. What would you say? Maybe David said, the business travel leader who’s looking to get more consistent results within their business travelers, it may be a combination of a handful of things that you’ve said maybe something different. But if you’re talking to that guy, the travel leader, leader, and he goes, You know, I just I just need consistent results.

David McGlennen 33:35
Right

Bryan Paul Buckley 33:36
How does he get those?

David McGlennen 33:39
Yeah, I think, you know, the one thing that I think of right away is building trust. You know, I think of like Patrick lencioni, his work in the his book, The Advantage or Five Dysfunctions of a Team. And it all stems from trust. So it’s building that trust. And so I would say this to any leader is that if you, you want to get better results, you better build trust, because that trust is the basis for a whole lot of other things that are going to lead to the results, you got to be able to have, like in the Five Dysfunctions model, you’ve got to build trust, so that you can have healthy conflict. Once you have healthy conflict, then you can gain commitment. Once you gain commitment, then you’re going to have accountability and accountability will lead to results. So I always think of the lencioni Pyramid when I think of, you know, driving that analogy.

Bryan Paul Buckley 34:31
Perfect analogy. Yeah. And I think it also ties back a little bit, David, where you’re talking as far as what the values turn into behaviors and behaviors that are obviously rituals. If I know that my boss has these certain values, so I know what to expect. Right? But I knew it’s not nebulous, like you mentioned, you know, what, respect to one person is completely different to another. That can be my own family, let alone You know, in America versus, you know, oh, Canada versus like a completely different culture in the West. But if I know specifically what those behaviors are, and I know that can be measured, and they have my best interests at heart, right, there’s a phrase I say a lot. If you invest in me personally, I’ll invest into you more professionally. Exactly.

David McGlennen 35:13
Yes, exactly. I couldn’t say it even better yet. That’s absolutely true.

Bryan Paul Buckley 35:17
Any closing thoughts? Any suggestions kind of putting a bow around this conversation here from, from rituals to values to trust?

David McGlennen 35:26
Yeah, you know, I think I think the thing that just comes to my mind is to, I really feel like value or rituals are one of the biggest things for any road warrior, especially wanting to take it to the elite level, I’ve got this sign hanging behind me here, that says play like a champion today. And it to me playing like a champion is doing the hard things, doing the things that that will get you those results, and you got to create rituals to be able to do that in whatever area whether it’s physical, emotional, your, you know, your, your, your eating, you have to create those and so I would say that the biggest thing that any road warrior who wants to go to the elite level and really when I think it you know, when when at family when at work, you got to create some some healthy rituals. And so that’s maybe the last thing I could say.

Bryan Paul Buckley 36:19
Love it. And I love the last word of that song because I’m staring at it right now. You know, it’s we’re doing this via video, playing like a champion today

David McGlennen 36:25
Today.

Bryan Paul Buckley 36:26
Because yesterday doesn’t matter as a league guy. You know, there’s the guy who’s the one and done or the you know, he’s the one hit wonder. Made the all star game one time. Yep. But he’s not the perennial guy. You know, he’s not the elite, you know, to use our word on there. So I love love. Love that. So before I let you go, let’s go through the road warrior road life lightning round. Are you ready?

David McGlennen 36:50
Yep. I’m ready.

Bryan Paul Buckley 36:51
Your preferred airlines.

David McGlennen 36:53
I’m a Delta guy.

Bryan Paul Buckley 36:54
Window or aisle?

David McGlennen 36:56
I am an aisle guy.

Bryan Paul Buckley 36:58
Why?

David McGlennen 36:59
Well yeah. Yes. So I, I number one, I’d like to get out and get on my way. But then secondly, I’m always a right side aisle guy, because I’ve got a leg issue I had a on a long flight I had a blood clot and so I like to stretch my leg out and in that left leg on the right side is is like mandatory.

Bryan Paul Buckley 37:19
Love the specificity I am also a an aisle right side guy. And the reason is, I’m left handed.

David McGlennen 37:26
Oh, yeah, me too.

Bryan Paul Buckley 37:26
Oh, there you go. So the benefit of your of your blood clot issue obviously was post being born left hand but nonetheless. Yes. And that that chicken wing out there, especially if I’m having to write at all I’m not you know, especially in that middle seat guy right there, of course is usually the overweight guy. Right? I really don’t care to have my right elbow in the middle of his belly button. This is not about me right now. This is your lightning round. So I’ve totally made it about me. Oh, one thing you always do on a flight? You’ve already mentioned this one.

David McGlennen 37:53
Yeah, yeah. So I always I always listen to music and nine times out of 10 I’m always reading as well.

Bryan Paul Buckley 37:59
Preferred hotel chain?

David McGlennen 38:01
Marriott I love Marriott.

Bryan Paul Buckley 38:03
Any certain specific of the Marriott properties.

David McGlennen 38:07
I’m not necessarily now I do like the Courtyards. But But I just like the I just like the brand as a whole

Bryan Paul Buckley 38:16
Rental car or rideshare?

David McGlennen 38:18
Rental car. I like Hertz because they make it super easy to be out, especially with their app. It’s it’s there’s just a lot of ease to that.

Bryan Paul Buckley 38:29
Least favorite airports?

David McGlennen 38:31
Oh, gosh, LaGuardia.

Bryan Paul Buckley 38:33
That seems to be the common answer. Just so you know.

David McGlennen 38:35
Is it really? okay

Bryan Paul Buckley 38:37
Yeah, they are to their credit they’re getting better. I had a Southwest flight that I had to take out of LaGuardia and I was used to use be able to do Newark and this whole section is starting to open up so they…

David McGlennen 38:47
And fun fact too. LaGuardia was really kind of the turning point in my in my life in my career, because it was the kind of it was kind of like the camel that broke the arrows the thing that broke the camel’s back because long story but but I was sitting in you know, a lineup of airplanes taxiing out because we had gotten delayed and I was going to miss one of my son’s concerts and so I was like, something’s got to change. So…

Bryan Paul Buckley 39:17
That makes sense. Definitely.

David McGlennen 39:18
LaGuardia.

Bryan Paul Buckley 39:19
That’s a good one. Yeah favorite city to frequent?

David McGlennen 39:23
I love Atlanta. I love Atlanta I know people hate the the traffic but man I love Atlanta. There’s just so much cool stuff there and it and I probably like it too just because I’ve gone there quite a bit in my travels and like it that’s that’s that that airport is probably the one that I can I can navigate with my eyes closed and then I’m asleep, but yeah, I love Atlanta.

Bryan Paul Buckley 39:47
See most people like the city they don’t like the airport. Last one, biggest road pet peave?

David McGlennen 39:52
Well, so we actually kind of talked around it earlier. I I just really don’t like it when people go up to an airport attendant and just like, berate them and and yell at them, or just get all fired up when it’s, there’s nothing that can be done. I just I laughed, but that’s a pet peeve of mine. I’m like, why are you doing that you’re wasting your breath.

Bryan Paul Buckley 40:19
Comic relief.

David McGlennen 40:20
That is my pet peeve.

Bryan Paul Buckley 40:21
I also feel so many emotions I feel so bad for the person is getting beat a little. How can we find out more about you?

David McGlennen 40:29
Yeah, so you can definitely connect with me on LinkedIn. I’m on that platform quite a bit. You can also check out my my website, DavidMcGlennen.com. And also, I’ve got a podcast that just launched called “In the Growth Space”. And so DavidMcGlennen.com/podcast and you can see that or anywhere, Spotify, you know, Stitcher, Apple, whatever. And you’re going to be on that here very soon as well,

Bryan Paul Buckley 40:59
which I’m looking forward to. And so I love this. I mean, you’re a resource guy. So I love that I’ll make sure that we list the books that were that were you that you referenced, obviously, your podcasts will be referenced on there, the LinkedIn link will be there as well. David, thank you so much for Thanks. Yeah, breathing into us as road warriors. And even though you’re not on the road as much, it was a huge part of your life. It was so to do at such a high level with five kids but then also too, training for a triathlon. This is a lot with there, so thanks for thanks for dropping the knowledge bombs too here today.

David McGlennen 41:31
You got it, man, thank you for having me on.

Bryan Paul Buckley 41:37
One of the best decisions I ever made on the road, was choosing just to take two minutes a day to write in a specific journal something to my wife, to let her know that she wasn’t forgotten while I was on the road. I wrote the location and the date at the top. Then I take just two minutes to write a memory and encouragement. How I was always thinking of her in the moment, or missed her. So one day, she would read this entry and know her husband was thinking of her when she received this journal. It was a game changer in our relationship, all because of two intentional minutes on the road to and this journal is now available, called the Not Forgotten Journal. Go to elite roadwarrior.com/store to purchase your own copy for your significant other.

Bryan Paul Buckley 42:33
Let’s land this plane.

Bryan Paul Buckley 42:37
I’d like to thank David McGlennen for his time, for his honesty, his challenges and his insights for us to become and remain elite road warriors so much there.

Bryan Paul Buckley 42:52
You can find the transcript and everything referenced in this interview in the show notes at eliteroadwarrior.com/094 along with the free resources for both the business traveler and the team leader of business travelers. And as always, I’d love to hear from you. And you can reach me on my primary social media sources. LinkedIn at Brian Paul Buckley, Instagram @eliteroadwarrior and on LinkedIn at the Elite Road Warrior company page. So wherever you are, do something anything, just not nothing to master the business travel life Leverage the concept from this interview from David to help you become and remain an elite road warrior today who eliminates burnout and exceeds results. You got this!

References

David McGlennen LinkedIn Page 

David McGlennen website

7 Early Warning Signs for Companies to Avoid Business Travel Burnout

Top Ten Business Travel Hacks Guide